Greek Defence Minister Spilyos Spilyotopulos's interview with the Bureau Chief of Hurriyet Nur Batur

26.6.2004Greek Defence Minister: Things are changed now... Our prime ministers Mr ErdoÄŸan and Mr Karamanlis they have started a new policy approaching each other and that’s very good for both countries and for the area of course, because as we discussed with Turkish minister of defence we have so many things to do, we have common challenges, we have common threats.. speaking about terrorism etc etc etc.. and if there are any problems between the two countries we can solve these in the easiest way, by dialogue by sitting on the same table and exchanging views and there is no any reason to have any tension over the Aegean sea.Q: As you have said we have a new period now we don’t have tension right now in the Aegean what is your target as a new goverment as Karamanlis goverment in bilateral relations in defence field mainly?A: In defence both countries we have diceded to cut in a big amount of our defance expences it’s benefitial for both countries for our people you know... we have a lot of social needs to cover for our peoples, we cover these needs and weapon system etc etc etc... of course there are security problems around the area for both countries, we have to maintain you know... an amount of army, we are lowering the ceiling of our army we make more flexible, more you know fast reaction forces in order to cope with the needs that they have our alliances and European Union for peace-keeping missions Nato European Union and United Nations.. so there is a transformation of our arm forces, there is a new structure in the commands and there is a new structure in operational issues matters and of course there is a change in the way we are thinking about... so our priorities are to be a factor of stabilization and peace in the area, to have very good relations with all our neighbours and the new policy that both our prime ministers open one and a half month ago to be the start of a new era in our relationship between two countries... so we agreed with my counterpart the Turkish minister of defence that the area has many challenges as I told you before and we better join our efforts in order to secure our countries... our peoples from these threats... and of course we appreciate the help of the Turkish goverment for assistance in our organisation of the Olympic games and we are looking forward to solve any problem that we are going to face in the future and in the meantime we support the European perspective of Turkey and we consider this policy as a basic policy to improve our relations to make them betterQ: You mentioned the challenges that both countries face. What are these challenges?A: First is the terrorism this is an international threat, it’s a threat against all open societies and since threat is international in order to face it effectively we must have an international cooperation and this is happening through Nato the European Union for bilateral relationship and above all it’s the political will to face these threats effectively in cooperation with our neighbours and there are many assymetric threats like illegal trafficing, drugs, weapons you know illegal immigration.Q: Is there any coopperation to stop illegal immigration for example.In the Aegean among the military forces, patrols...A: Coast guard control of the Agean is not an affair of the army forces the coast guard of course provide support to the coast guard of the navy if they need... In recent year we had a lessen number of illegal immigration... of course there is a protocol between Turkey and Greece signed by previous goverments and I think that we must implement this protocol in order to lessen even more the numbers of those persons. Of course I understand that there are illegal networks not only in your country, in our country, in Balkan countries that promote this. You know for... just for money but all stage have to apply the law help each other to not have many illegal immigrations and now we have in Istanbul the Nato summit and there will be a discussion about cooperation between Nato countries for a new Nato role and the agenda is already set and we are going to talk very serious problems for the area and of course terrorism, security and stabilization of the area.Q: Are you still afraid of war?A: Between Turkey and Greece? No,no. No way. There is no way!Q: I feel that people on the street, Greeks, are not afraid anymore.A: No. Acording to my opinion, all these years, it was your politicians and our military. Both Greek and Turkish people had no problems. Now they exchange visist from Greek islands to Turkish mainland and from Turkish main land to Greek islands. There are more than 13 agreements between Turkey and Greece for cooperation. There is very god climate. We the politicians, we have to promote. If we see that the Agean Sea as a sea that joins us, not separate us. Of course there are problems. It happens even in the best families. So that we are here to solve problems in a different way. There is no reason to have tension over the Agean Sea.Q: So you say even the families have problems?A: Yes (Laughing) how about neighbours! (laughing )Q: And of course we have historical problems as well.A: In the past there were... But we also live some periods of Turkish Greek friendship. And that proves that both countries and both people can live in peaceful enviroment. Of course the past is the past. In the past there were son many wars all over the world. And the best example of a peaceful cooperation and coexistance is France and Germany and for us there is a safe way to solve the problems and this is the International law, International Aggrements and bilateral agreements in order to solve our problems.And it is no the first time that the problems have been solved through the International law. There is a problem of continental self limitation issue. Let’s go to the Hague to solve the problem.Q: There has been some talks the last two years. Will it lead us to go to Internatoinal court?A: This is the target. We have to finish this. There is a way to solve the problem. Let’s go there. Why not?Q: Turkey says that continental shelf is binded to territorial waters and to airspace and all these things can be a package deal. Do you think it can be a package deal?A: A package deal can be, if the package will include issues and matters that could be solved through the Ä°nternational law because there are differences, If there is any difference according to law, a legal difference, we can solve it in the Hague or biletarally, speaking an aggrement. Everything else, which is not coverd by the International law, or an claim cannot be settled down by political dialog. Because we don’t have any right to change the InternationalLaw within the political dialog.Written text ,the law which is the security for any country especially for small countries. Because for the big powers like US or Germany, France, even China... but for us International law is our safety.Q: We hear that these Communities are discussing behind doors on maps, on territorials wats. So in some places it will be 3 miles, some places 6, and some 8. If it is true that they are working on maps and trying to solve the problem?A: There are some standarts that we have to start from. We have some standart principles and data, OK!Let’s talk about maps. There are different maps for many many years ago. For 200 years ago. English, Turkish, Greek maps. If here is good will and there is political will to solve any difference or any problem even a dispute or something, we can make it. The maps of course interprete the law. You can go large or you can go narrow. It depens on what is your will. The pars we have.. we have maps, everybody has maps and we talk about the limitation of borders, because this is the problem, this is the arguement. There is a common acceptance that, there are aggreed border line between Dodecannese area and Turkey because Italian, Turkish agreement and that problem was solved that time. From Dodecannese to the north, there is no any agreement between the two countries, but Lousanne treaty cleary stae that every island has 3 miles. Out of that is the Turkish coast. Belongs to Turkey. There is a point to start. A safe point. A secure point. To start from this point we can see all these international treaties, Lousanne treaty and Paris Treaty and all the treaties after the II. World War and nobody now can change a treaty, a post war tearty because everyting will be confused then. So if we talk about the borders, there is a point to start. Nobody raises the issue of the border especially we speak of electronic mapping. Because there are different data. And this is cause with Americans they don’t want to speak for borders. Because if you put them electronically there are some differences from the starting procedure, for typical procedure. They say "so there are no borders. I do exercise, or you are neighbours of Nato. And it is OK in the Nato contexts. Then we start having disputes bewtween neighbouring countries. when we talk on the national level, this is our borders. This is the line, this is the point, this is the territorial waters. We can talk about that according to the International treaties. We know that Turkey did not sign, did not accept 12 miles but now nobdy talks about that because we have so many problems.Q: So you say this is not the right time.A: And than the territorial waters. Usuall they say, if you have 6 on the ground, you have to have 6 on the air. But in 1931 it was put 10 onthe air because at that time, the aeroplanes were faster than the time that they could reacted with the weapons that they had that time OK… 6 miles territorial waters but we go to 10 on the air because we want 4 miles warning in order to be ready for any thing. OK! There was internal law and this is still valid.Q: So is it possible to change?A: We can go to 9, to 6.. We can do many many things. I believe in the future. If we continue with this, both countries we’ll have very good relations. Every thing will be setteled down in a very peaceful way. OK! But you know it’s very, silly to hear that here is a casus belli.. and now nobody speaks about that. I am trying to tell you that the situation is very good. It is very hopeful because we’ve passed from one stage, face to another and things go better and better and better... and there will be sometime, that Greeks and Turks could discuss in a very peaceful way to solve any problem. Because sometimes there are some problems raised that they are not problems, are some claims... Expressed for political reasonsQ: So you think that 12 miles, 10 miles, the casus belli, whatever been discussed up to now, can be solved automatically with the understanding...A: When time is mature, when time comes I believe everything between Greece and Turkey could be solved in a very peaceful and understandable way and this is a good start and that’s why we now are speaking for strategical certainties. In the area and we don’t speak about threats. Of course, every country has it’s sovereignity and nobody, nobody accepts to give any inch from his territorial... and of course we have to respect treaties and international law and of course there is no reason for any threat and violance, we are in 2004 now.Q: I understand as you say there is a political will...A: Of course, of course....Q: .....A: I don’t believe that Mr ErdoÄŸan say to Greece this and this is a casus belli for that and that and that so far that’s finished now we face a new era.Â